A Conversation ...... ...... Q: Since its inception, The Salvation Army has taught the doctrine of holiness, or “sanctification.” How would you define this experience? A: It is not a mere sentiment. It is not a happy sensation that passes away in a night. It is a baptism of love that brings every thought into captivity to the Lord Jesus (2 Corinthians 10:5); that casts out all fear (1 John 4:18); that burns up doubt and unbelief as fire burns flax; that makes one “meek and lowly in heart” (Matthew 11:29); that makes one hate uncleanness, lying and deceit, a flattering tongue and every evil way with a perfect hatred; that makes Heaven and hell eternal realities; that makes one patient and gentle with the disobedient and sinful; that and to such perfection we can never hope to attain. There is, however, a perfection, which we are given to understand, God requires in us. It is a perfection not of head but of heart; not of knowledge, but of goodness, of humility, of love, of faith. Such a perfection God desires us to have, and such a perfection we may have. It is that state of heart and life which consists in being and doing all the time—not by fits and starts, but steadily—just what God wants us to be and do. ....................... Q: Isn’t that simply the result of spiritual growth? A: Growth adds to us, but takes nothing from us, neither does it change the nature and disposition. Holiness consists in having some- “There is a perfection God requires of us. And such a perfection we may have.” makes one “pure ... peaceable ... open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere” (James 3:17); that brings one into perfect and unbroken sympathy with the Lord Jesus Christ in His toil and travail to bring a lost and rebel world back to God. thing taken from us and in having our spiritual nature made over into the image of Jesus. In order to be holy we must have every unclean desire and inclination and passion of the soul removed. We are told to put off “the old self” (Ephesians 4:22), as really as we put off an old coat, “and put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24,), as really as we put on a new coat. It would be nonsense to talk of growing out of an old coat into a new one! ....................... Q: You used the word “perfect.” Are you saying it is possible for a person to be perfect in this life? A: A friend asked me some time ago whether I believed in and taught perfection. I replied that that depended upon what he meant by the term “perfection.” If he meant absolute perfection, I did not. God alone is absolutely perfect in all His attributes, own room at the time, but in a few minutes I went out and met a man and told him what God had done for me. The next morning, I met another friend on the street and told him the blessed story. He shouted and praised God and urged me to preach full salvation and confess it everywhere. God used him to encourage and help me. So the following day I preached on the subject as clearly and forcibly as I could, and ended with my testimony. God blessed the Word mightily to others, but I think He blessed it most to myself. That confession put me on record. It cut the bridges down behind me. I was now known by myself and others as one who professed that God had given him a clean heart. I could not go back now. I had to go forward. God saw that I meant to be true till death. So two mornings after that, just as I got out of bed and was reading some of the words of Jesus, He gave me such a blessing as I never had dreamed a man could have this side of Heaven. It was a heaven of love that came into my heart. I walked out over Boston Common before breakfast, weeping for joy and praising God. Oh, how I loved! In that hour I knew Jesus and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love. I loved the sparrows, I loved the dogs, I loved the horses, I loved the little urchins on the streets, I loved the strangers who hurried past me, I loved the heathen—I loved the whole world. ....................... Q: How did you come to this experience? A: On January 9, 1885, at about nine o’clock in the morning, God sanctified my soul. I was in my ....................... Q: Can anyone receive the blessing of sanctification? A: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not given to anybody and everybody. Jesus spoke of Him as One Continued on Pg 14 The War Cry | JUNE 2013 13